Posts by Christ Alone

6

Recovery - Here is the 'Earthly Hope" in the bible

by EndofMysteries in

i personally am inconclusive about the great crowd, but i have found many scriptures that address the earthly part and they do not at all agree with what the wt teaches about it.

i want your thoughts on this.

first look up rev 20:7-9. this is after the thousand years have ended and satan is released.

Christ Alone

I will have to back through and reread a few of these chapters to give an honest response.

i.e. - search the WT library and copy/paste what they say about these scriptures.

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

Christ Alone

Ahhhhhh....so Recovery is a pioneer. Makes sense now. He's using this forum to count time.

35

Dear Recovery...

by OneDayillBeFree in

it is 3am here and i just finished reading your last post and even though i have to be up at 6am tomorrow morning (technically later), i felt obligated to login to jwn and write to you.

i thought about saying many things.

hurtful things.

Christ Alone

I will refrain from the use of the word apostate.

No, that's not the entire problem. Yes, it's an insulting term, but it's the attitude behind it. It's the attitude that EVERYTHING that someone that disagrees with the WTS says is "diseased". It causes one to dismiss every single point the other person makes, and not consider them. You have a point to prove and NOTHING the other person says has any validation.

I've seen it on the Great Crowd thread. You can't concede to a single point. EVERYTHING that is different from the Watchtower is invalid. They are right about everything.

Recovery, you have to acknowledge that if the Watchtower changed their view about something, you would fight just as hard to try and prove that they are NOW right and were not right before. It has nothing to do with your own research. On this site you are just attempting to repeat what the Watchtower currently teaches. You did not come to this knowledge based on your own research of the Bible. You take what they teach and your goal is to repeat it. You are not trying to verify that you are believing the right thing. You aren't asking, "Is what they are saying true?" No, you are saying "This is true" and then you are trying to repeat it no matter what arguments are valid or not.

Why is it that nearly every greek scholar has stated that it is impossible that the Great Crowd spoken of in Revelation is on earth? There are NO greek scholars at the Watchtower. Yet you would prefer to go with the high school graduates with no college rather than the people that know what they are talking about.

The interesting thing on the Great Crowd thread is that we ALL used to believe what you are saying. We used the EXACT SAME "FACTS" that you are trying to use. But most of us have seen that this was a twisting of scripture and showed a complete lack of knowledge of Greek and simple hermeneutics. I still don't know why the society does not understand how to interpret scripture, or other literature for that matter. Look up hermeneutics on the WT library. It's not there. That's because they don't know how to interpret scripture. They only know how to use "proof texts" and argue those single texts.

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

Christ Alone

Recovery, are you counting time while you are on this site? Just a question I was wondering about...

35

Dear Recovery...

by OneDayillBeFree in

it is 3am here and i just finished reading your last post and even though i have to be up at 6am tomorrow morning (technically later), i felt obligated to login to jwn and write to you.

i thought about saying many things.

hurtful things.

Christ Alone

It is simply my way of having fun and exposing flaws in thinking and why people shouldn't take every single word I type in such extreme seriousness.

I understand this, Recovery. But please remember that people that you call "apostate" that have real feelings. We are not heartless people that are "evil" and "mentally diseased" like the WTS calls us. You could be responsible for someone becoming deeply depressed. And I don't think you really want to do that. But there is no place for insults and sarcasm that is done in order to tear someone else down.

Believe what you want. But don't go so far as to insult others as the Watchtower regularly does.

35

Dear Recovery...

by OneDayillBeFree in

it is 3am here and i just finished reading your last post and even though i have to be up at 6am tomorrow morning (technically later), i felt obligated to login to jwn and write to you.

i thought about saying many things.

hurtful things.

Christ Alone

I'm thinking that Recovery is not going to respond to this?

27

Forthcoming Kingdom Ministry School schedule and references

by cedars in

i'm taking a break from jwn at the moment, but i thought i'd briefly jump back on to post some information that has been sent to me.. many of you will be aware that the governing body has somewhat hastily arranged another "kingdom ministry" school for the elders, and there has already been a degree of speculation on the forum as to what matters will be addressed at this meeting.. a friend has very kindly sent me the text of a letter to bodies of elders in britain which includes the meeting schedule as well as the reference material that elders are asked to bring along and "meditate" on beforehand.. here is the letter:.

to all bodies of elders .

re: kingdom ministry school.

Christ Alone

Of course, what each one does in preparation for the school is a
personal matter.

Wow...the level of control is almost too much to comprehend. Why would they include this comment? Is there an elder that is thinking "Well can I use a laptop when preparing for the school? Hmmm...OH...ok. So It's a conscience matter... I guess I can use my ipad to prepare..." Comments like these that the WT includes are almost insulting to a person's intelligence.

BTW, are any elders here willing to attempt to record portions of the school? I don't believe I've ever seen someone post one here. It would be interesting to here what they say/change right from their own mouths instead of just hearing a report about it.

35

Dear Recovery...

by OneDayillBeFree in

it is 3am here and i just finished reading your last post and even though i have to be up at 6am tomorrow morning (technically later), i felt obligated to login to jwn and write to you.

i thought about saying many things.

hurtful things.

Christ Alone

The reality is that no one gives a deep crap of what Recovery or anyone else believes

How sad that some people think this way. You've gotta speak for yourself (KS) and not for everyone here. I personally have come to change many things that I believe because of what people have written on this site. I respect the views of everyone (even atheist/agnostic arguments) even if I don't agree with them. Yes, I may want to prove my point and argue, but I still respect their right to believe or not believe. I may not come across that way sometimes, but I am a real person with real feelings on this side of the keyboard.

It's interesting, KS. Sometimes I feel like you speak like Recovery. You want to call everyone delusional and be insulting to everyone that has an opinion different than your own. I've seen it happen many times between you and many other posters. It gets into an insulting match of who can make the other feel worse about themselves or their beliefs. Why can't we tell people our opinion and respect their response without having to get insulting? If you have such a good case about what you are arguing, why can't you do it without comments that insult the others intelligence and make them feel like YOU are smart but THEY are delusional or stupid?

I know this wasn't about you. But it's something I've noticed about both you and Recovery.

Onddayillbefree: That was beautifully done. I wouldn't be able to be that eloquent at 3am!!! I think it illustrates and important point. And before someone thinks that I'm claiming to not be this way, I'm not claiming this. I have a lot to work on. But I also think that we should try to show love, respect, and understanding towards everyone that posts here.

I'm thinking right now about Oompa. Some of the things that we are feeling are very raw. Some that may have been out of the WT for a long time may have had those emotions fade and start to not watch how they say things anymore. But remember, there are some people that are still deeply confused and hurt by what the WT has done to them. We need to respect them and understand that they are going through things that we are not going through. They may be at the point of suicide. They may be at the point of turning to drugs or alcohol for some sort of comfort. And please remember something we say can deeply hurt another person here.

Obviously we can talk about things and have our own opinions and beliefs. But that should never bleed over into insulting others, disrespecting their views, and making them feel less worthy or even stupid.

I think about how sometimes we call other people delusional. I've been guilty of it. And others have too. That's a personal attack on someone and their beliefs. Can't we debate without having to cross over into the realm of personal attacks and insults?

I really think this should apply to current and believing JWs that post here too. We've all seen how people like Bane, Alice, Elephant, and Recovery have tried to insult us and what we came to believe was true and untrue. We should we do the same to them?

I believe that the ONLY way a JW is going to reasonably listen to the facts is if the facts are brought to them in a calm, loving, and reasonable way. We can do this whether we are Atheist, Christian, Islamic, Mormon, or Jehovah's Witness. We forget that today. We forget to show tolerance, love, and understanding when we feel so strongly about something. We get frustrated because of the beliefs that others hold that are different from our own. Sometimes this feeling is understandable as the OP pointed out. When we first get out of the WT, we are angry, bitter, confused, and resentful. But that SHOULD fade over time. And we should let a more tolerant and loving attitude shine, no matter who we are, what we believe, or what God we choose to worship.

33

Apostasy Trial - Part 6 It's finally all online...

by RayPublisher in

the entire saga, all 3 hours are now online.

this last one took hours and hours to edit and i am so glad it is done.

(although i still have the behind the scenes footage to put up on how i did the hidden camera lol!

Christ Alone

Eric, you have a pm back.

33

Apostasy Trial - Part 6 It's finally all online...

by RayPublisher in

the entire saga, all 3 hours are now online.

this last one took hours and hours to edit and i am so glad it is done.

(although i still have the behind the scenes footage to put up on how i did the hidden camera lol!

Christ Alone

Just finished the video and there are a few comments I want to make.

Eric, you said to your friend in the parking lot that you didn't think you did a good job. I honestly for the life of me can't think of anything you could have done better. It was absolutely perfect. The Holy Spirit was working with you and it was absolutely obvious.

Your prayer at the end was beautiful. They tried to stop you at first, but you did it and it was great.

I think most of us would have gotten worked up and angry. But you held it all together and approached them with TRUE Christian love. I just can't tell you how proud I am of you!